00:00.95

wongga

Welcome investors this is Garrett Wong your host of the investing to win podcast today I have a guest from the south. He tells me it's ° Jordan how are you? Yeah so um.

00:11.63

jordan

I'm doing good man. Glad to be here.

00:15.79

wongga

Let's ah, let's get into the background. Why don't you tell everybody about yourself and how you became to be what you are today.

00:20.94

jordan

Well I've been working in residential property management for about 15 years all of my career has been spent in the space but not managing properties I got my start working for a venture-backed h away management company then I got into lead gen. Now I'm selling workflow automation software and a bunch other stuff along the way.

00:41.84

wongga

Okay, um, that is very very surfacey. Ah, but I know that you're a serial ah entrepreneur. Um, why don't you tell us about the ah the lead Gen company that you have and you know what is its size operations bodies that type of thing.

00:55.32

jordan

Yeah, so lead Gen thing was the very thing I started doing now. It's fully passive now. So it you know has close to 0 employees and just kind of runs in the background I did that for a couple of years what I realized was in that business we were connecting landlords with property managers. We were so effectively selling leads to the property managers to help them connect with people that they could manage properties for and folks just really struggled to follow up and to actually be responsive. Don't like saying that but that's definitely was and still is the state of the industries that a lot of small businesses. Struggle with timely follow-up that made being a lead gen vendor difficult and as a result I decided to pivot out of that into software the first software that we sold was a crm tech stack that would help people respond to leads. We did that for probably 3 or 4 years beside we before we decided to pivot into workflow automation and the workflow automation helps property managers manage the entire lifecycle of a property soup to nuts from. Placing a tenant all the way through renewal all the way through our security deposit disposition.

02:04.75

wongga

Okay, um, well we wanted to speak about employee engagement today. So um, how many employees are in the company.

02:12.00

jordan

Um, lead simple has about 44 employees right now.

02:15.13

wongga

44 all right? Okay, well um I know with my company and companies. Um, you know you find good people Sometimes they're good Sometimes they're not sometimes there's skill levels. But. I find and my most success is when you are able to get the employee to engage um to kick things off. How would you define employee engagement.

02:35.93

jordan

I look for employee engagement with our mission obviously people care most about things outside of work and so the question for me is how do I create meaning inside of and at work and for us that looks like. Ah, dual combination of aiming at something difficult. We're not phone at it in we're aiming aiming at something difficult which means that people are at risk the possibility of failure is real I need that to show up at my best that's on the right hand side and on the left hand side is. Our mission which is to help people become and achieve more than they thought possible and what's great about that mission is that it's really fragile. It's ephemeral. A lot of people hear that and they think well that sounds like some you know some corporate speak. But for us, it's real. It really is what we're aiming at and so the the tension of those things those 2 things together has created a lot of engagement.

03:36.55

wongga

So when you speak about that mission. Are you speaking about the company's mission or the mission for the employees because it sounds more like the employees but maybe clarify that.

03:46.89

jordan

Um, it it. It is the company is mission and the company's mission is the advancement of the employees.

03:54.00

wongga

Okay, well, that's that's really interesting to actually tie it in there. Um, how do you feel or has it worked I mean do you have good employee engage. That's what we're here to debate right? I mean.

04:05.10

jordan

Um, yeah, as it worked. That's a great question I mean ultimately, you'd have to ask my employees but it certainly feels like it's working I've noticed a shift really I'd say within the last twelve to twenty four months the last 12 more specifically. And a lot of it is a function of my growth as an entrepreneur you asked me about that lead gen business when I started that business I had no vision for employees I didn't want any employees if I could had a server in the cloud kicking off cash that would have been optimal now I have a team and it took me about a decade. To transition from a very transactional relationship with my team where I pay them money and they do stuff to where I'm at now where my goal is really exactly what the mission is to help people become and achieve more than they thought possible and the the trick is. Believing that that drives performance if you just believe that's pure altruism. It's great. But I might as well be running a nonprofit I really truly believe that that is the thing that drives performance and I've seen that over and over again.

05:09.38

wongga

So I mean what you're talking about here is leadership right? and and being genuine means again, you go into most corporate boardrooms. You see the mission and vision statement on the wall. Most people can't even quote it and I in my experience I Believe employees just think ah whatever.

05:10.97

jordan

Hundred percent

05:26.81

wongga

Right? I'm just here How do you? How do you be genuine. How do you lead and and get people to believe you as a leader.

05:36.46

jordan

That's a great question it really for me looks like connection presentsencing myself giving people the real version of me the good. The bad the ugly and wanting to know what's really going on for other people in practical terms. What I would say is. It looks like being willing to have a greater proximity to the emotional surface area of what people are experiencing than is common in the workplace. That's not to say that we're running therapy sessions. But when I'm in a meeting and I sense that somebody is stuck. There's something that they want to say but they don't feel like that they can say it I'm looking to press in at that point to provide them with the confidence that they can vocalize themselves. They're not going to be punished for what they have to say um. And really that I need to hear them I need to know what they're really thinking and feeling I promise to reciprocate I Ask people to bring their whole selves to work and that's what tends to bring out the best in people.

06:37.66

wongga

Yeah, ah, but the thing is 44 people you're not in front of everybody all the time right? like I don't know what your current role is in the company. Um, okay so you're not exactly down in the weeds with operations and you know at a company-wide.

06:46.60

jordan

I'm Ceo.

06:54.53

wongga

Meeting Whatever like I get the same thing people want to engage. They want to hear what I have to say how do you pass that down so that your employees with their reports and who they're reporting to also feel that level of vulnerability I mean that's really what I believe we're talking about here.

07:11.21

jordan

Yeah, it's really, It's the the big question isn't it I can transfer it to the people that directly report to me and then I have to rely that they will push it down to the people below them the shift really is getting high performing type a people. To believe that connection is not just necessary but that connection is how we unlock performance when I can get somebody to have that insight and to see that for themselves then it becomes much more obvious and you'll fall off the horse but people will come back to it when they see the performance games that come. From really presencing yourself and like being all in with your team members and making not making actually caring not making them think but just like actually caring.

08:01.95

wongga

Um, yeah, um, and it's a belief system. Um you know? Ah, we're an eos shop and we try to match everybody to our visions and you know capacity and all those types of things and it's.

08:05.70

jordan

Yes.

08:16.52

wongga

For me again I'm currently struggling with this right? because how do I engage with somebody know that I'm getting the genuine um care and then like for me in our shop I'm trying to. Create an environment where everybody is sort of their own entrepreneur because I'm an entrepreneur I want that kind of innovation that ingenuity. Um, and you can't get that at everybody and I don't know if you've had similar successes.

08:42.37

jordan

I Have some folks that I'm really clear will be operators someday and that's inspires me and I find it heartwarming and I try and mentor accordingly in those situations. That's a minority of staff for sure I Think what ownership I think you can have a deep level of ownership. And Innovation sands and interest to actually be an entrepreneur and that has to do with self-expression right? I'm painting on a canvas and what I paint I Want to uniquely reflect me, There's tension there you want systems processes you want to reduce the surface area for failure at the same Time. You have to give people the ability to express themselves if they're just a cog in a wheel that becomes the lowest common denominator situation very quickly.

09:29.44

wongga

Well you mentioned transactional right? Um I'm a big believer in not making any business transactional relationships as well going for the long game. How do you How do you. Get out of that transactional financial compensation I'm going to pay you more expect more because in my mind it works for a little bit and I'm speaking about like weeks. It doesn't work for a long time.

09:54.91

jordan

I find that there's a fascination from a subset of entrepreneurs around the idea of incentive pay and I freely concede that there's some some really interesting research and there's some value there. What I find exception with. Is that it presupposes that pay is the primary and motivating factor for people and I just reject that premise if that was the case we could increase pay and decrease quality of life and and it would kind of net out. You know it would go sideways. But that's not really the case. Like you said it lasts for weeks months but eventually it trails off where I've seen people excel is when they believe that the work that they are doing is positively impacting them the team around them and that they're going to be acknowledged and. Scene for the work that they're doing one of the things that we do is we have a slack channel where we give team shout-outs and we just like we celebrate one another for what we're up to and it's not mandated. We don't make anybody do it but people are in there all the time when we're in our Zoom our weekly Zoom meeting. Chats on fire because we're just like vibing with each other. So for me, the fun, the ethos. The vibe is something I very aggressively um, manage and invest in like the vibe has to be.

11:23.58

jordan

Right? And if the vibe is right organic things happen if the vibe isn't right? You can't throw money at it to fix it.

11:27.58

wongga

Yeah, and I'm I mean we're we have a mainly like 80% remote company I'm assuming that you are not walking into bricks and mortar if I know you're correct exactly right? So I mean we haven't even crossed that bridge to talk about.

11:39.40

jordan

It's all remote everybody's remote hundred percent

11:45.65

wongga

Like we're speaking about engagement but not engagement on a remote level. That's like how do you even do that right? So I know we have ah a daily Zoom meeting and we're joking around and it's camaraderie that's part of the engagement I believe too.

11:57.58

jordan

You said it something that really resonates with me before that it's a belief system. What I would add to that is it's a made up belief system I don't have any proof that me caring about the vibe or my mission. Drives greater performance nor am I really looking for proof. It's a belief system that I find really rewarding fulfilling that if I invest in my people good things will happen. It makes me feel good I anecdotally see it producing results but a lot of it is just a made up belief system and what I see from some. Um, operators is that they don't really like their employees if I'm being honest Garrett I have all these conversations and I run into folks that do not like their employees and the question that I have for them is do you really think that they don't know you know.

12:42.46

wongga

Ah.

12:56.49

jordan

Isn't that an indulgent thought that they that they don't know seems so unlikely to me.

12:58.46

wongga

Um, the up.

13:01.63

wongga

Yeah, so if you are transmitting that how are they picking it up and what type of engagement are you going to get I mean you're almost dead before you start at least the way I I think of things I don't know what it would be in a 3 to 500 person company. But again you know you talk about those levels Ceo then all the way down to supervisors I don't know and that's what I'm trying to unpack with you today.

13:27.63

jordan

Yeah, and that's where it starts at the top as operators believing that there can be meaning at work There's so much cynicism and the cynicism looks like hey my meaning is outside of work I'm doing this to make money. Once I make enough money then I can go get my real meaning outside of work and my thought is I spend more time at work than I do with my family than doing anything else really not because I'm a psycho It's just the nature of working a 9 to 5 kind of job I better be able to get some meaning out of this I'm bent on getting meaning out of this. And therefore um, if I'm going to get the meaning that I want I need to have a lot of connection. It's one of the deepest felt needs that people have is for connection. It's just a lot of folks operate under the idea that you you can't get that it worked. You shouldn't get that it worked. You're not going to get that at work and it's become normalized but there is. Ah, different way and it starts with the operator believing that your team really can't have meaning and that you can't have meaning and kind of transmitting that instead of the opposite.

14:31.37

wongga

Yeah, well one of the things that we've done as a company is finding our why Simon Sinek obviously and I have actually encouraged some employees that have come to me and said you know what this property management gig I don't know if it's for me.

14:39.55

jordan

Um.

14:48.89

wongga

And I've encouraged them to explore. What do you want to do? Well I want to go into social media marketing or I want to be in graphic design I'm like okay well how can I help you do that and they've left the company on good terms because of it because really you know I just interviewed a guy yesterday he owns ah ah, a pretty you know.

14:49.50

jordan

Ah.

15:01.10

jordan

Ah, ah yeah.

15:09.20

wongga

Scaling they're they're going crazy right now a property inspection company but the guy loves everything he does like his energy and passion just came across. He's at 4 employees right now and he has way too much work. But. It's not work for him. He just loves it so much and I remember those days I mean property management you have good days and you have bad days. But as an entrepreneur I'd say the good outweigh the bad but what I'm trying to unlock is how do you get that level of enjoyment out of an employee who comes to work every day.

15:41.12

jordan

A.

15:42.70

wongga

Right? And therefore like you said they're spending more time at work with their their coworkers than their families. You want to make it seem so that they get up and go Yeah, what's what's on my plate too. They can't wait to get to work.

15:52.55

jordan

I find that folks that are looking for meaning can first feel drawn to the idea that the meaning all has to be in what they do like for me the meaning has to be about software or the tool that we're selling great software. Great tool I don't find that to be the thing that intrinsically drives meaning I've run a bunch of different businesses I believed in all of the products that I've pushed the meaning for me had to do with the people that I got to be around my customers. My team my team first my customers. Second investors third and that transcends what you're selling. So if you're if you're wanting meaning and you're struggling to get it the question I would ask is like how are you showing up at work are you showing up at work the way that you want to show up globally. In life or are you making some kind of caveats like outside of work I show up this other way I'm this different kind of person but at work I make myself small I just kind of I do the minimum necessary etc. The reality is I carry the whole. Me with me regardless of of where I am. There's no real distinction. So any moment whether it be a full workday or just a moment at the grocery store. It can have or as little or as much meaning as you choose to impute into it and if you're waiting.

17:24.90

jordan

For circumstances or another person to dub the moment as having meaning it's not really going to happen meaning is self-generated.

17:31.16

wongga

No I would agree 100% one of the things I was going to ask you are key indicators right? key indicators that an employee is engaged that they're invested with their work in the company. What would you say to that like how would you define when you see somebody that's engaged.

17:49.33

jordan

Visibility is the first one that comes to mind as you mentioned we're a remote company so when I go weeks without seeing someone I don't see him in slack I don't hear from them contribution in conversations they're ducking out of Monday calls etc. That's. Probably the biggest one now. Obviously there can be extenuating circumstances. There could be sickness. There could be personal stuff going on but that's the first flag and that's that's something to press into is like there's always going to be some folks that are more visible than other folks but over sustained periods of time when you have folks that choose not to engage. In the community culture of the company. That's usually a tell.

18:28.89

wongga

But when you say visible. Do you mean showing up for the Zoom meeting or do you mean looking at the camera having their camera on I mean what level are we talking about here.

18:39.17

jordan

Yeah that's a great question. What are Monday meetings we go around and we have people share a personal professional best and it's the difference between somebody being excited to share something meaningful versus somebody being like oh it's my turn. Okay, yeah, what was it and then they come up with like too lame. Irrelevant anecdotes that share nothing about them and I don't see them in slack. For example, when we're celebrating another teammate. They're not contributing that sort of thing.

19:07.31

wongga

Okay, yeah, no for us one of the things that we do in every meeting. Actually we have kind of a standard agenda. It's 15 minutes but we remind people at the beginning that we're going to be randomly choosing somebody so I want everybody to think of a win. Personal or professional that happened the day before because we're doing this on a daily basis now I'm doing this because property management is tough. It's difficult. You're dealing with a lot of negativity and I want them to really think. Okay, what did I do yesterday personally or professionally that that I can actually say as a win. So even though they're not being called on. At least everybody's trying to think of something. Um, but you're right, you do get the odd. Oh um, well I I don't know. Ah yeah I guess ah and then they just yeah, we signed a lease for x property yesterday right? and it's it's not the same so I and I struggle with that.

20:01.13

jordan

It starts with me of course right? It starts with my love of engagement. That's what I am finding so meaning about work is that this isn't something that I can externalize and ask other people to do It is directly correlated to my own personal.

20:01.29

wongga

Yeah, it's tough.

20:19.34

jordan

Involvement and the way I presence myself and the way I show up and that I find intensely stimulating because it means that I always have to be connected I'm not the entrepreneur that's looking to work towards a passive situation I am intending on being completely engaged in my role here and. I'm only able to do that right now because of what I'm getting out of it not in terms of money but in terms of connection, vitality and life mission.

20:46.80

wongga

Yeah, well we speak about connection. We speak about not wanting transactional ah relationships and my director of operations blew me away last year when we're talking about money and you know how are we going to compensate people we were having that whole performance versus money conversation and he. Introduced me to the concept of emotional compensation. Not financial compensation. Um, so what's what's your initial reaction when I say that word to you in in relation to your companies.

21:05.31

jordan

And.

21:13.18

jordan

Um, um, um, my first thought is um, nobody wants to get underpaid so I would say the intent is to pay everybody an absolute market wage That's dead on with the value they're creating and. To max out that side of the equation as Well. So it very much feels like a both end for me.

21:34.70

wongga

Oh no for sure I wasn't suggesting hey let's pay everybody minimum wage and give them all you know donuts every day. Yeah, yeah, that's yeah, but no for emotional compensation is.

21:43.98

jordan

Ah, gift cards and stickers in emotional compensation. Ah.

21:52.25

wongga

You know? Okay I'm being paid a fair wage so you know I always used to ask this question in my interviews. What's the minimum salary that you need not want but need to live right. And and what do you want because there's 2 different things there. So if you're making forty fifty $60000 a year that's fine so now their needs are taken care of so that's financial for me, but the emotional compensation now the things that keep them at work. The things that make them wake up and want to go to work. What are those emotional compensation. Items that you would come up with.

22:25.13

jordan

My experience is that frequently people are unable to articulate what exactly those things are so I think that's a great question to ask. However. My deep experience is that frequently. The bar is very low in this category and people are not able to fully express themselves my experience of what people desire has been that people are looking to to be able to be themselves to. Um, feel like they can show up with who they are and there's not going to be rejection or judgment that people are going to be rewarded and recognized when they do dope shit and I want my team to do to be having that experience as often as possible. Um that when they're down when they're struggling that there's going to be. The opportunity to share and to experience grace and compassion and there's also going to be the ability to lift other people up and feel like that they are operating at their best that they're being challenged like we identify as a sports team rather than a family. And that's really meaningful to me because the point of a sports team is to compete at the highest possible level in pursuit of winning a championship I have 3 beautiful daughters I Love them. I'm not doing that with them right? There's I'm not thinking about who we're gonna cut which of the kids we're gonna cut at the end of the season. Um.

23:51.66

jordan

Both are great but a very different context and we've chosen. The sports team is the metaphor that we choose we identify around.

23:58.94

wongga

That's that's really interesting to me. Um, how many times do you hear the cli I gonna go up call it a cliche. Oh we're a family you know our business is ah yeah, we feel like a family but you're right? So now you can go in. You can have lunch and dinner with your folks.

24:06.27

jordan

Have.

24:15.40

wongga

But there really isn't a goal other than just existing and having nice relationships. Everybody needs a goal Otherwise at least you want to attract the type of people that are competitive that want to win. Yeah.

24:16.89

jordan

And.

24:26.57

jordan

Really, they're They're fairly incompatible I think everybody's had the experience of having a parent that you feel like is just trying to manage you towards this specific outcome and it's annoying like ostensibly they want you to be better, but it's Annoying. It's like stop managing me whereas on a sports team when the coach is. You know yelling at you saying do a couple more reps you can do it keep going. That's the point is to be under duress in pursuit of getting better chasing something that you identify matters If You don't think it matters join a different team. But if you believe that that thing matters Together. We're straining after something.

24:49.90

wongga

Here.

25:03.87

wongga

I Love that because to your example, you're going to probably feel resentment towards the parent for pushing you. But you're not going to feel resentment at least later towards a coach because you know that they're pushing you for your own good and for the good of the team. It's completely different I Love that.

25:04.60

jordan

Um, significance.

25:18.10

jordan

Yes, yes, and what you are walking away with is skills. Of course you're being compensated along the way. But when you have a high-end player think of a Nfl player a high-level player when they're done working for that team. They're taking their skills to the market and they're joining another team and being compensated accordingly and so the skills are something that each team member gets to keep the company doesn't get to keep the skills. The team member gets to keep the skills and capabilities.

25:51.21

wongga

Yeah, no, um, you know when we speak you were just going back a couple seconds to emotional needs and compensation I mean we've tried okay here are some benefits that's great. But again, that's kind of financial. Ah, we've been last year we started on a four day work week right? So everybody gets a permanent long weekend. We kind of shift around that so instead of working an 8 hour day they just work 10 hours four time 4 days that's been really, really successful I would put that in the category of emotional compensation. And now we're playing around with the unlimited pto unlimited paid time off. Umm, not sure what box that fits in yet though we've had mixed reaction to it because we've had some people say oh great and limitedmited paid time off. This is great I can control everything I can call my own hours. But then I've had some concern about actual work life balance right? So I don't know which box pto fits in what do you What do you think.

26:46.00

jordan

A. Well I've heard of unlimited ptl. It's not something that we've done It's interesting concept it it comes up in the book. No rules rules by Reid Hoffman 1 of the Netflix founders. Yeah, it's an interesting idea I think of benefits. As being the bucket where we're asking in our case, what would need to be true in order for people to ah feel supported in their mission to become and achieve more than they thought possible. So I'm asking like the benefits. You could think about it ah in terms of like retention or recruiting I think about it as enablement for the team in pursuit of the mission and accordingly benefits should get better over time. Um, that's been the case for us. We're currently in review of our benefits. Right now we've identified a need in some gaps and some things we needed and wanted to improve that we're rolling out later this year, but that's kind of philosophically how I think about it.

27:49.79

wongga

Okay, well let's speak about implementation of some of these strategies I mean if you are a Ceo business owner and operator that is trying to engage their employees. What's a top 5 list that you would recommend somebody who's listening to this podcast to go. Okay. This is what I'm going to try how how do they implement.

28:14.26

jordan

Well, the first thing I would I would recommend is to realize that the governor on your ability to do this is your own leadership and if you have not aggressively invested in your own leadership. There's ah, there's just a limit to how effective you're going to be here. So. Step 1 is get serious in investing in your leadership and if you don't assign a lot lot of value to that if you don't think leadership training courses seminars books are worth investing in then I would say you really got to modify your expectations for how much change you're going to be able to drive. Um. So I'd say start there make those investments I have and it's been profoundly impactful and I'm going to continue to do that because not only am I seeing it make a difference but it's it's improving my quality of life number 2 once you've done that would be to get comfortable. Having the under the table conversations that are not currently being voiced one way to do this. We did this at our last in-person onsite was to open up the room to allow people to complain complaining is typically viewed as being bad and negative. You can flip it on its head if you package it in context with oh with responsibility what we did there. The exercise was a ccr a complaint everybody go around everybody in the room lists out complaints.

29:41.98

jordan

You don't really need a lot of training on that right? Everybody can reflexively do that pretty well and then number 2 is contribution. What did I do that contributed to the thing I am complaining about step number 3 what is my request. What is a specific change I would like to request of myself or others that would help remediate the complaint that exercise created a big shift in the room when we had it. The first see the complaint easy. Second complaint second c contribution that was a lot more difficult folks really struggled to connect their contribution to the complaint and the point of that it's not a gimmick to blame people. It's giving people a sense of agency. The thing you're complaining about whatever it is. You're involved in because the suppositional belief is that everything going in my life I'm either happening to me I'm either creating or tolerating now that's another made up belief I don't have proof for that. But I find it very useful and it serves me and I tend to select my beliefs on the basis of of the kind of results that they produce in my life. So if you can get comfortable allowing people to verbalize the conversations that are beneath the surface. The stuff that you're not talking about right now like you kind of know it's there. But.

31:04.65

jordan

You're afraid you don't know how to navigate it and if we bring that up. It's a can of worms who knows where it's going to go dredge it up dredge through the bottom of all the crap that you're avoiding and invite people to identify their own contributions to it and then land the plane with requests. For making specific actionable changes. That's a collaborative unearthing and addressing and and in general I'd say that's one of the most effective things that I've found.

31:37.30

wongga

I'm taking notes here by the way if you can See. Um, no I would say in my experience. Um, most employees companies. Whatever would maybe do the Cr and Miss the contribution part so you have the complaint. And you have the request but usually at least in property management. The complaint is there's too much work I'm overworked I'm not happy and the request is can you hire more people if you get the contribution component in there. Maybe you then are able to or the employee is able to analyze and. Not to say that they're looking at themselves but that level of engagement now. Okay, this department isn't running efficiently. We're going crazy answering phones because of whatever it might be so I Love that contribution component.

32:21.38

jordan

Yeah, that that met that example is great. So what? what could somebody have contributed well did we have growth plan for the year let's say we did did we agree to it corporately was it something we had a discussion around if the answer is yes and man I've had this situation where. We get together together as a leadership team. We set some goals and then midyear you feel the strain and the the desire to complain can come up and it's like well this wasn't a top-down thing I didn't put a gun to anybody's head and say this is this is what we're up to like we agreed together and that is a great starting point for. Reflection because it's not uncommon for people to agree or to commit themselves to do things that they later regret and question and that's a really rich conversation. You know that's the human condition. Why would I commit to doing things I don't actually want to do. If your leadership can bloom to the point where you could navigate navigate people through that conversation that is a deep level of care because that doesn't have anything to do with just work that's happening outside of work too. I'm agreeing and committing to things I don't want to do personally professionally. Man if I had the skills to like process that think through that improve that wouldn't that radically improve the quality of my life and my and my experience the answer is yes.

33:44.30

wongga

Well, you know I go back to your metaphor of a sports team and leadership. So Now we're putting these components together Sports team Leadership I believe it comes down to goal setting because that's like you know. You're winning the super bowl you're winning the Stanley cup you're winning the world cup. Whatever it is pick your pick your championship. You know how do you do anything in life without a goal whether it's to get up in the morning and work and retire whatever you want to do? Um,. What's what's your view on goal setting in that.

34:18.74

jordan

My goal set my view on goal setting is that it's an opportunity to push back against the default human tendency towards hopelessness and despair and cynicism. There really is no.

34:19.32

wongga

That realm.

34:38.54

jordan

Point to life that is not going to be self-generated. My experience is that meaning comes from being willing to find something that is so important to you not because somebody else told you so but because the pursuit of it. Calls out the best in you and that that pursuit and that thing is worthy enough that you're able to press through the day-to-day despair and hopelessness. That's being served up on a platter and that you're able to not take the bait towards. All the all of the distractions. All the distractions that are that are a way to kind of self-medicate through the despair. Um, whether that's entertainment Drugs Porn alcohol video games. Point doesn't demoralize about these things. The point is simply that it's a lot to find anything in life that is really worth aiming at and my view is that it matters a lot less. What that thing is than that you find something to commit yourself to.. That's a huge gift to find anything in life that you can commit yourself towards and it's something that everybody has to do individually and I'm just really grateful to be a part of that for a small subset of humanity.

36:07.50

wongga

So The goals that we as leaders are setting right? You have to try to find good people with skills. Okay checkbox and then you try to how do you get them to align with your goal or or know that this is something. Get them to realize hey you know what this property management thing. This software thing I Really identify with that I want to help I want to I mean you can't get that out of an interview necessarily.

36:35.67

jordan

What I get out of an interview is looking for people that are competitive for its own sake I don't know how else to put it other than the thing that I am looking for is a level of Motivation. That is self-generated the the high performers that I work with day-to-day if they weren't doing it here with me at this company. They'd be doing it somewhere else. It's their thing. They're just into it not because they told them to be so or because the enticement enticements of this one opportunity. So that really does require cultivating and recruiting a certain mindset and I wouldn't say that it's the average disposition for everybody in humanity that may be somewhat more specific to what I'm up to but I'm really looking for people that are deeply competitive just for its own sake. Whether it's. At work or game of hockey afterwards you know,? whatever.

37:39.32

wongga

Yep, cheating at cards with your family right? Ah I only say that because my wife is super competitive. My kids are always accusing accusing her of cheating. So hopefully she's not listening to this but um, no one all seriousness. It's.

37:44.34

jordan

Ah, will but.

37:55.00

wongga

It's difficult like you have okay so I know in your podcast you have that question on entrepreneurs born or bread when you talk about competitive nature and in a human being is that just there or can it wake up because they identify with the goal. But the goal that you as a leader are communicating to them.

38:15.50

jordan

Ah, it's a great question. Well I know it can be conditioned I'm intending to condition it right now within my own household I see that some of it is dispositional. You know you meet meet the meet the parent meet the offspring and it matches I do think that the mission can impact things. For sure. Um, some people I just watched a documentary the other day and it was a bunch of scientists in Antarctica drilling up core samples, freezing conditions and they were so engaged and into it and for them. It was connection related to like climate change or something along those lines research advancing that. Um, that's I don't you ain't going to catch me in Antarctica drilling core samples anytime soon like that's not the thing that I personally feel connection to but what I noticed watching that and what I feel is the same with my work day-to-day is that the camaraderie was really deeply felt. And that so much of the meeting meaning comes from working with great people that you're having a great time with in pursuit of something difficult where you are at risk and the possibility is a failure is real. I truly believe that is the basic building block and recipe and if you get more juice on top of that because you're nuts about property management nuts about software and nuts about scientific research god bless but the core element is that it was something difficult that you're doing with really excellent people.

39:44.71

jordan

That you care about and that care about you.

39:45.30

wongga

And then you have to sprinkle in the ability to let them communicate Express themselves feel safe right? Safety is very important because if you tell somebody go out on a limb you better believe that you're going to catch them when they fail right? and.

39:52.10

jordan

Yes, and big time.

40:03.91

wongga

Only a leader a true leader is able to communicate that make them feel safe.

40:05.85

jordan

If you if you punish people for bringing you quote unquote bad news people will stop bringing you the bad news and more bad things are likely to actually happen right? That's that's the basic.

40:20.16

wongga

You hear.

40:24.71

jordan

Reality you get more of what you subsidize and God forbid you you tell people that the reward for highlighting things that aren't working is disdain or critique. It's delicate I'm not going to act like I don't There aren't things that that don't trigger me. Or set me off and I don't see certain things happen and think like oh man again, that sucks etc. But that's on me, that's my opportunity to play that out myself and to not externalize it because the reality is I Want to stay as centered as possible day-to-day and to not have my emotional well-being. Follow the ups and downs of what's going on at work because you know I mean it's a constant roller coaster.

41:04.97

wongga

Yeah I've I think I've mentioned this before but you know a good friend of mine had sort of mentioned think you know you have a really lousy day at work and he would drive home sit in his driveway for a couple of minutes and think. What kind of person do I want to portray when I walk through that door to my family am I going to be the property management owner that had a lousy day with owners and tenants screaming at them. And I'm going to bring that home or am I going to be the loving father and the great husband and the best friend that I was before I left her work this morning right? and I think yeah that it was just very profound because you you have to make a choice to let it affect you and those outside of that space. So.

41:40.36

jordan

And.

41:52.71

jordan

It's not easy man I can't think of the number of Friday afternoons where something happened and I carried it into my weekend and it's a regret if if I'm honest, but it's also an opportunity for me to just let go. And realize that me beating myself and getting upset is really for me I'm getting something out of it something kind of dark and perverse. But I'm getting something out of it. It's not good for the company. It doesn't solve the problems. It's just it's a way to.

42:21.48

wongga

I.

42:26.51

jordan

Give myself a sense of control by ruminating about the problem what it costs me is my connection. My relationship with others and 1 way that I have found helps me to connect through that particularly when it involves other staff members is just to go to that person and to have the conversation. As soon as possible as explicitly and as clear as possible and to just commit to press and work through it rather than just having an imaginary conversation with that person in my head and you know debating them? Yes, yes.

42:58.41

wongga

And then things fester. Yeah, um, just got a couple more minutes here but you know really what this podcast is about sure if you're if you're listening to the podcast and you don't have engagement at work. That's great and I I wish you all the best to try to get that. But for those. Business owners and leaders that are listening to this kind of want to ask you you know throughout your journey as an entrepreneur because anybody listening to this is okay, that's great, but I barely have time to even make my payroll and think about other things and get whatever order that I have out what how do you.

43:30.79

jordan

M.

43:34.22

wongga

How do you reconcile that can you share maybe a pivotal moment of personal growth or maybe maybe an aha moment as an entrepreneur.

43:40.42

jordan

Wow! 1 of the biggest ones for me was being on a phone with an executive coach that had been recommended to me and it took me a lot to get up to having the phone call and I knew exactly what what I wanted to talk about I wanted to get on. And tell them that my problem was this other person and I wanted to describe it in vivid hd detail why this other person was my problem and it was a half hour phone call and by at the end of that call I realized the problem wasn't them. Problem was me and it was freeing. It wasn't heavy. There wasn't any guilt around it. It was incredibly freeing because if I'm the problem. That's great because I can change the biggest shift for me was realizing that I have agency everything happening in my life I'm either creating. Or tolerating and adopting that point of view has giving me a ton of freedom because it's affirmed my agency in every situation when bad things happen. My goal is to say perfect. What's opening up here. What possibility could be now. It doesn't mean that I don't have negative emotions but it does mean that I am trying as much as possible to stop to stop externalizing how I feel by pointing to other circumstances and to realize everything comes back to me and the beauty in that is that I have agency.

45:15.62

jordan

I can make changes I can change my point of view that's been the biggest shift for me I think.

45:20.73

wongga

Wow! All right? Well um, one more question for you then and I ask every guest this question I Want to hear what you have to say so this is the investing to win podcast. How do you Define success and what does winning look like for you.

45:37.41

jordan

Oh Man I Define success as being where I want to be when I want to be with who I want to be showing up at my best thriving Growing. Um. And playing an infinite game where there's no destination to get to but the point is to just keep playing and to stay in the game. That's really it for me.

46:03.47

wongga

Yeah, and there's a lot of factors that that make that happen that's about 15000 podcasts right? There? Well ah Jordan. This has been great. Thanks for hanging out with me. It's been great going back and forth wanted to do this for a long time and yeah, um, I'm sure the audience is going to get a lot out of this podcast.

46:20.66

jordan

Yeah, hats off to you man doing what you love here podcasting I can feel that it's something that lights you up and you're leading the way just leaning into something you have passion around. Love it.

46:30.77

wongga

All right? Well yeah, thank you very much and we'll catch you next time take care.

46:37.72

jordan

Um, until then.