00:00.56

wongga

Good afternoon and welcome. This is Garrett oh geez. Okay I screwed that up pretty okay I'm gonna do that again. Just a pause good afternoon and welcome. This is Garret Wong your host of the investing to win podcast. Today I have my guest fercy perez on the show fercy how are you? Okay, so um, this is ah a bit of a special episode because fercy actually works for our property management company upper edge property management.

00:23.27

Fercy

Um, I'm great. Thanks thanks for having me.

00:36.22

wongga

And I wanted to have them on the show because I've been speaking lately in the podcast on social media about the concept of Cash flow because with higher interest rates. Cash Flow obviously is a little bit squeezed for some investors. It's affecting deal Analysis. And I thought Firstey ah could provide a unique perspective because he works in business development and speaks to a lot of Investors. So firstcy. Why don't you start by telling us a little bit about yourself. What's your story and your background.

01:09.70

Fercy

Sure, um, my ah background is customer service I've been in customer service for the last almost twenty years twenty years now I do have a degree in um, in international trade so importing and exporting. Um, but I found that customer service is my passion That's what I love.

01:28.89

wongga

Okay, so you've been with our company. How long now 5 years okay so customer service.

01:35.48

Fercy

Um, ah, closing in on 5 years

01:44.60

wongga

So your role with us is business development. Why don't you try like explain what that means exactly to our listeners.

01:51.52

Fercy

Sure so business Development. It's mostly about bringing people into the company um finding out if we're a good fit for the people reaching out about our services. Um finding out what their plans are for their properties for their investments. And just making sure that it's a smooth transition.

02:11.34

wongga

Okay, let me fill in the background for our listeners because I don't often talk about our property management company so upper edge focuses primarily on single familyly multifamily condo. Um, third-party management that means the company doesn't own any of its assets. We are managing solely for investors that might either be here in Winnipeg but mainly abroad and they need somebody to lease out the property pick up rent. You know evictions handle maintenance concerns things like that. So firstly handling business development when he says bringing on and seeing if people are a good fit. Those are potential investors right? So those are people who are reaching out to see if we can help them for whatever reason.

03:00.19

Fercy

That is correct that is correct. Ah it's normally investors landlords that are calling in reaching out about our services and see if we can provide ah property management for their for their ah for their properties.

03:12.62

wongga

Okay, so in your experience What types of investors are calling in are they experienced. They have you know dozens of units are they beginners like what? what's what's the average calling in.

03:27.51

Fercy

In my experience. Ah, it's It's a little bit of everything. Actually we have first-time investors. Ah we have accidental Accidental Landlords So Perhaps someone that wasn't really thinking about keeping their property. Ah, maybe wasn't really thinking about using it as a rental property. Um, but now they they have no choice. Um, we also have ah investors with a few ah larger portfolios with a few properties so we do have a little bit of everything. Does vary.

04:02.27

wongga

Okay, okay so pretty big mix. Um I don't know how many of our listeners have heard the term accidental landlords but you also said first time investors. So what would ah the definition of a first time investor. Be.

04:15.76

Fercy

So a firsttime investor is someone that is looking to get into the industry someone that is interested in purchasing a property to have it as ah as a rental as a rental property but it's the it's their first time right? They're just they're they're just. Trying now at the market. They're just looking into what it means to have a rental property and maybe they're just starting off with their with their first property.

04:41.74

wongga

Okay, so the difference between a first time investor and an accidental landlord. What is a knowledge gap there is it about the same or is it their differences.

04:53.68

Fercy

There usually is a little bit of a difference. Um in an accidental landlord ah is because they're not thinking about keeping their property as a rental property. They really have no knowledge about what that what that means or what that's like. Ah, they they have no idea how that works what the process is like what their responsibilities are as landlords and a first time an investor is someone that is that has already looked into the industry and tried to learn. A little bit more about what that means.

05:28.23

wongga

Okay, so a first time investor would at least but know how to calculate net income and things like that.

05:39.52

Fercy

That is correct. The first time investor will ah by by this time they normally normally by the time they they reach out to us. They've already looked at a few properties. They've already looked at um, what their? ah um what their mortgage. What the rates are going to be like. Um, so they're already um ah getting familiar with the with the industry when an accidental landlord. Ah, just really has no idea where to start.

06:06.71

wongga

Okay, so that's somebody who's had their property on the market for a bit and the realtor says hey you know what it rather than keeping it empty. Why don't you put it on on rent for a couple of years call upper edge is that kind of how it goes.

06:22.30

Fercy

Almost 100% of the times correct. It's ah someone that they've been trying to sell they keep lowering the the ah the selling the the listing price and they just have no interest. Um for the past few months and yeah. Ah, ultimately, their only choice is to try to try to rent the property. Ah keep it for the next year or so maybe a couple of years and and give it a shot later down the road and see if they can sell it then.

06:53.56

wongga

Okay, um, so with both types of investors and actually let's let's group in the third you said seasoned investors. So those would be people who have properties. Maybe they're managing on their own or with they're they're with another management company is that. Sum it up.

07:11.46

Fercy

Correct seasoned investors experienced Investors. They've already had a few properties. Maybe they started with a couple but they've grown their portfolio. They already knows what it they already know what it's like um ah to have tenants to keep up with the with repairs. That kind of thing.

07:29.62

wongga

Okay, so with all three groups. Um, as I I kind of spoiled it at the beginning I Want to talk about Cash flow and Cash Flow. Ah for the audience is kind of defined by whatever you can get for rent minus all your expenses but expenses like you mentioned do include Mortgage. Payments insurance property tax Obviously Property management fees If if you're choosing to have it professionally managed how many people out of those 3 groups or all of them always are kind of. Asking about cash flow and and concerned about it in your in your professional experience.

08:06.87

Fercy

Very close to 100% as well. Cash flow is usually the main topic. Um, it's usually what they're very very focused on um I'm going to say out of 10 investors that reach out. Ah, about property management services 9 are concerned with cash flow.

08:29.62

wongga

Okay, and what type of cash flow like we like I said we I would say I mean we do 3 story walkups and apartment blocks but probably sixty seventy percent of our portfolio of you know, 51300 units is single families out of the singlefami. Pick on them out of the single-family asset class. How many like what are we talking about for cash flow here on an average that people are hoping to to get out of a property per month.

08:59.56

Fercy

Ah, it does vary. It varies quite a bit. Um, you do have investors that are just looking to make maybe a hundred to two hundred dollars in cash flow I have come across other investors who are maybe looking to have ah a larger. Profit profit margin maybe 3 to $400 in in cash flow off of 1 single family home correct.

09:20.63

wongga

Okay, off of a single family home. Wow. Okay, yeah I mean even my own personal portfolio that's quite rare unless you're getting into like duplexes and Triplexes. So. Now that we've established that almost 100% are are focused on Cash Flow I mean what are some of the other critical factors that investors should consider you know when when assessing potential real estate investments.

09:51.11

Fercy

Ah,, there's ah, definitely ah, a few things that you that you may want to consider um one of them being. For example, if ah, if an investor buys ah a cclass of property in a c-class neighborhood. Um. You know the cash flow might look good on paper but they often ignore other factors such as ah vacancy laws Break. Ah Break-ins Squatters and you know the the danger the dangerous neighborhoods where where tenants rarely renew their lease. Um, and. Ultimately, the investor needs to pay for leasing and advertising on a yearly basis which later on affects the bottom line.

10:31.32

wongga

Okay, so just so we're talking defining this for the audience like what I would consider c-class neighborhoods I think that's a well-known term in the industry. But for those of out there trying to learn a c-class neighborhood would be something. You know the property values are are a little depressed.. There might be lower income ah residents living in there a lot more maybe crime of thatt like you mentioned vandalism. I mean squatting um is that is that a prevalent thing. Um, at least here in winnipegan your experience.

11:06.88

Fercy

In my experience. Yes, especially in those C class neighborhoods. Ah you often have to take other measures to keep the property safe because that is something that happens often.

11:20.11

wongga

Okay, so we're talking vacancy then somebody breaks in um and then you know the investor and or the management company comes there and finds.. There's just people living there and they've broken In. Um. How do you protect against that.

11:38.72

Fercy

Ah I mean in terms of ah the services that that we offer. Ah I mean the the the.

11:42.97

wongga

Um, in general it may be even advice for an investor you know.

11:50.52

Fercy

Best way to protect against squatters is is obviously to not have the property vacant right? So you want to have someone living in the property and that's the thing about cclass neighborhood properties. It's usually a little bit harder to move someone into a property like that. Ah, you can't take safety safety meres. Ah as I mentioned um, for example, our company offers home watch services which means we can go out there and visit the property and make sure that everything is okay, 2 to 3 times per week or as often as neededeth. Um, but again I got go back tech having tenants in the property living in the property. Which again if it's a c-class property in in a c-class neighborhood. It's usually a little bit harder.

12:32.42

wongga

Okay, so when you say more difficult to place somebody I mean are we talking good tenants or is that what you mean like I don't want to spoil it again. But I mean in my experience. It's pretty easy to fill a c-class property because. There's just tons of showing requests and things like that. But you just said it's it's a little bit difficult and sometimes to ah fill it.

13:00.46

Fercy

It's it's easy to to find tenants. Um, but then you might come across lower quality tenants right? What I mean by difficult is you want to make sure that you're doing your due diligence with finding the right tenants with placing the right tenants in the property you want to make sure that they're paying rent every month that once they move out of the property. It's in. It's in good shape. It's ready to go for whatever you want to do with the property whether it's sell it or find new tenants. Um, when you find when you find a lower quality tenant. Um, you're putting all of those things at risk. Um, you're putting all all of those things at risk. Um, like I said you there is a lot of people looking for for properties but you want to make sure you know who it is that you're placing into the into the property.

13:48.80

wongga

Okay, so let's let's back up a little bit because um I don't want to pick on c class neighborhoods or investors who choose but this is an educational podcast. A c class neighborhood property obviously is going to be less expensive than a b or an a class property right? I think we can all agree on that and therefore if the property value is lower then the mortgage payment would be lower and if the mortgage payment is what. The main thing that we consider into expenses and net income. Then obviously it makes sense that and a c-class property would cash flow better. Um, but cash flow like you said, if you're constantly evicting filling at each. Each year because people don't want to renew their leases because they've had a home invasion or something happened in the neighborhood that they're not comfortable now that investor has those other soft hidden costs that they're not necessarily taking into consideration when they're evaluating pre-purchase right.

14:54.80

Fercy

Correct correct. Yeah,, there's there's other things that you might miss when choosing to go with a property like this. Um, for example, you know you also want to focus on equity and appreciation of a property right. Which um, you know within ah with a cclass property. Ah that is going to be a little bit more difficult as you mentioned there's the a and the B class properties say for neighborhoods the appreciation. There might be different.

15:25.75

wongga

That's interesting. Um, let's dive deeper into that a little bit like can you talk to us about the importance of appreciation in the long-term wealth generation compared to just focusing on cash flow.

15:39.57

Fercy

Sure. So um I think long term that's the the 1 thing or the main thing that you ah may want to focus on what that basically refers to is that the increase in in market value. So the the value of the property. Not so much. Um. How much the what the rental amount is but the actual value of the property. Um, if the investor were to sell the property 2 or three years down the road. How much could they sell the property for um or if they just simply want to. Ah. Refinance the property and and in an appraal is done um, then that's when that's where capital appreciation comes in.

16:20.61

wongga

Okay, so you're talking about year after year just the property value going up.

16:27.31

Fercy

correct correct year year after year the property property value is going to go is going to go up the the canadian average is is 5 % appreciation per year. So what? that means is the property is is coin. Up in value every year right.

16:43.95

wongga

Okay, I mean I guess that's a general statement because 5% I mean we do know there are other markets. Not only here in in Canada but obviously anywhere else in the world that are going to go up and down a little bit I think we've had a few guests on in the last. Couple of months that are from out of province that have chosen to invest in Winnipeg and I think winnipeg is attractive for a lot of out-of-town investors because that capital appreciation. It's not going up ah like a side of a mountain like ah a huge graph. But it's it's always steady. It's always going up which is why I think you like to quote that 5%. Okay, um, so when we're talking about cash flow versus capital appreciation. Can you speak to us about the differences in numbers.

17:21.22

Fercy

Who.

17:34.71

Fercy

Sure so cashflow we mentioned earlier there's investors looking for normally what they're looking for is a hundred to two hundred dollars worth of cash flow per month if you do the numbers that amount at the end of the year is about. $1200 um, in cash flow right? But if you focus if you stop focusing on cash fluent just focus on on um ah the appreciation of the property and let's say that it's 5% right? at the end of the year a $30300000 property. Um, if it increases and in in appreciation at 5% over that year. It's going to be $15000 um, so if you if you do the math $15000 $15000 is is a better profit than the $1200 cash flow.

18:38.96

wongga

Okay, so in in this day and age though like I had mentioned um at the very beginning at least at the record time of this recording I think yesterday they had just announced another quarter point by the bank of Canada some mortgage interest rates have gone up yet again. A lot of investors are not being able to cash flow right now. So they're not even getting their $1200 I think that's the lesson that we both want to to share here right? twelve hundred versus fifteen thousand what would you choose. Right? Obviously nobody wants to be negative out of their pocket I guess.

19:13.81

Fercy

Right? So at the end of the day you want to at least break even right? So I think that also depends on the type of market the climate that we're in whether it's ah it's a. Ah, buyer's market or a seller's market. But I I I think ah the investors are still ah better off in investing in a property not focusing on cash flow. But rather what the property appreciation is going to be um and. I mean if you just look at 1 year it's not ah, it's not a very long time right? If you have good tenants living in the property that are paying rent on time you're taking care of those tenants. They renew their lease now you're going to have them there for another two years that's another that's I'm sorry for another year so that's two years it's another year of steady rental income and that's another year worth of property appreciation. So I think you're still better off with even even with the with the higher rates I think you're still better off investing in the property and. Ah, kind of just writing the storm out.

20:27.75

wongga

Oh of the higher interest rates right? Yeah, no, that's great advice. Um, one thing I don't think we've touched on yet. We've talked about capital appreciation. But the other part of profit of long term I guess buy and hold real estate is the tenants. Paying down that mortgage for that investor. So I think on top of that 15000 that you mentioned I mean depending on the size of your mortgage I've seen people gaining another eight ten fifteen thousand in mortgage paydown by that tenant. So I think now we're talking what? what How's my math Twenty Five Thousand now maybe potentially versus 1200.

21:14.76

wongga

Okay, so let's so let's move on. Um, you mentioned tenant quality I think that can't be overlooked. Can you discuss the balance between securing you know, high cash flowing properties.

21:21.10

Fercy

Are.

21:28.39

wongga

But also attracting quality long-term tenants.

21:32.48

Fercy

Ah, sure. Sure. So um, yeah, so we we talked about the yeah, the the quality of the tenants right? Um, if you have an investor who is really really focused on cash flow. That means that they're trying to get. Um. Ah, higher rental amount for their properties right? So a higher rental amount for the properties. What that means is normally that means lesser people interested which means less viewings and less applications now. We have had investors who think or believe that it's better to have it that way because you're reading out the the lower quality tenants but I would say otherwise if you have a more competitive rental amount. Maybe you have less cash flow but you have a more competitive rental amount. You have more people that are interested in the property so you have more showings more applications coming in and you have a larger pool of tenants to choose from when you have a larger pool ah more tenants more people to choose from. You can ah find ah a good quality tenant and if you find a good quality tenant now you have stability now you have that rental income coming in every month um if you're taking care of the property taking care of repairs on time. They're happy. They're comfortable and they're likely to renew their lease. Um, we.

23:03.97

Fercy

I think I've checked in our system and we have um properties where the tenants have lived there for the past seven eight years so just think about what the capital appreciation might be over the the last seven eight years with good quality. Um, very steady rental income.

23:20.39

wongga

Okay, yeah, that's really interesting because um, what we haven't talked about is those other costs right? because I know that if I mean 8 years I think ah, an average rental property needs to be painted every 3 or four or five years so if you have ah. Ah, tenant in there for 8 to 10 years that's another 3 to $5000 paint job that you can add back into the income column right.

23:46.94

Fercy

Sure Sure Yeah I mean and I and I mean I mean this this is ah money that you're putting into the property right? It's money that you're putting putting into the property at the end of the day. Ah, once you have that property appraised again you're you're going to be able to add add thought on to The. Ah. To the value of the property.

24:06.78

wongga

I think what? so a lot of investors. Don't think about when they're trying to get the very very highest rent possible and I mean all respect to them and and you try to do that. But I mean this is educational right. I think the like you mentioned the property might be vacant, a little bit longer and that's simply as a fact of less people looking and you're trying to look for the very top of the market rather than maybe people who are trying to save for a home and things like that. But. If some if you're able to convince somebody to come in at a higher rent. Great. Okay so you got your cash flow for that year but now that person's living in there and they're talking to neighbors. They had a chance now that they're settled to look around on the market. A little bit. What are the odds that they are going to renew their lease after a year when they see that the entire neighborhood is $200 cheaper I don't think too many people think about that when they're trying to get the maximum cash flow.

25:07.13

Fercy

Exactly exactly that's that's ah, um, that's a fact and I mean investors. Normally they forget to look at the other properties that they're competing against right? so. You know you you look at your property you have a three- bedroom property. Um, and you're advertising for ah a higher rental amount. But then there's other similar properties that are advertising at a lesser rental amount. So What other properties that you're competing against what is your competition. And yeah, like as as you said you move someone in. Maybe they agreed to pay that much. Um, but exactly what are the chances of them staying another year. Maybe they they.

25:48.13

wongga

9

25:51.95

Fercy

Will Not renew their lease and if they don't renew their lease Now you're having to move them Out. You might have a vacancy period. You don't know how long it's going to take you the next time around to find tenants right? So if you if you have the the right rental amount. Maybe you're not having. Ah, that much of a cash flow. But if you have that in place and and you attracted good tenants into your property I think it's just long-term stability.

26:19.27

wongga

Okay, so if we could sum it up for the investors out there. What are some of the common mistakes that you've seen from investors who are too cash flow oriented and how could these be avoided.

26:34.50

Fercy

Um, ah so the the consequences. So.

26:42.60

wongga

Okay, just count to 5 and then start answering I'll just make a note. It's all good.

26:57.62

wongga

I Actually can't hear you right now.

27:01.30

Fercy

You So you ask? what are the common mistakes right.

27:04.80

wongga

Yeah, it's all I can ask it again if you want. But I think if you just count to 5 then we can go back to my question and then they'll edit it in.

27:15.17

Fercy

Okay, count to 5 like actually count.

27:16.38

wongga

Well I'm just well not out loud. No I'm just saying so that there'll be an obvious pause and then they'll just edit out this entire thing that we're talking right now.

27:22.58

Fercy

Okay, gotcha gotcha. So some of the common mistakes that we see is investors not wanting to fix something because that affects cash flow. Right? So if you if you have ah hundred dollars in cashflow every month. Um and tenants are reaching out to have something fixed in the property and it's maybe fifty seventy five one hundred and fifty dollars to get that fixed. Um, it's usually if you're if they're just focused on cash flow. Ah, they're they'll usually deny those repairs right? But what are the consequences. Ah the the tenants the residents might get angry again. Are they going to renew their lease at the end of the year if they're not happy um if they're not comfortable living in the property if things are aren't getting fixed. They're likely not going to renew their lease right? So what does that mean for the investor they're losing a good tenant. Um, they're going to have to fix the issue anyways. Um, if they want to move move new tenants back into the property they might come across that thing that is broken and not want to live in the property right? So you're going to end up having to fix that. That issue anyways. But now you're having a vacant property you're having to pay for leasing leasing services advertising costs. Um, and if you have that property sitting vacant for a month or 2 again. That's that's more loss.

28:54.17

wongga

Yeah, so fix it now since it has to be fixed anyways like why? why not right? Um, but you know a month or 2 of of rental loss. We see this all the time in our company even at a $1500 rent

29:09.97

wongga

Two months of rental loss. That's $3000 over like you. You mentioned one hundred and fifty two hundred dollars repair maybe the sink finally broke or the tap snapped off. Ah whatever it is. How can you even compare 3000 versus 200 so um, yeah I think that's great advice. Um and anything else that you would say that some common mistakes that you've seen.

29:33.46

Fercy

um um I think that's that's some of the main ones that's but 1 of the main mistakes is that not keeping the tenants happy enough to make sure that they're renewing their lease every year

29:51.21

wongga

Okay, yeah, no I know we push that here at upper edge just try to take care of the residents so that we're able to actually get that lease renewal I think it's just stability all over for for us and for the investors. Um. So to finish this section off what advice would you give to real estate investors about maintaining because it's all about balance so maintaining a balanced perspective on cash flow and other important investment considerations.

30:19.79

Fercy

Yeah I think investors need to have a ah ah balance between the 2 right in an ideal world. Nobody should want to pay out of their pocket for their rental properties. So there isn't you're at least breaking even but every climate is different. Um, for example, the the current mortgage rates if someone if someone wants to get into ah rental property into this industry. What do they do right with these with these current rates.

30:49.79

wongga

Okay, all right? Um, let's transition a little bit um because you've been with our company for four plus years so you've seen a lot. Um, how have you seen this industry change since the time you've been here.

31:06.45

Fercy

Wow, It's ah it's changed quite a bit actually um I'm going to say one of the the main things that I think has has changed is ah it's more technology-driven.

31:22.52

Fercy

Um, and that's for the companies that are innovative right? Um, so ah yeah, you know? obviously you still have property managers that themselves take care of everything. Um, they have keys for your property. They go out to your property and check on check on things for you? Um, but I think if I if I were to talk about 1 thing. 1 of the main things that have changed is the fact that it's there's more tech. There's more um, ah available. Um, even apps applications out there for property management services.

32:05.92

wongga

And how does that affect the end user I mean this is really about the client. So what? what are we talking about here like portals or what kind of tech it would ah an investor want from their property manager.

32:19.77

Fercy

So One of the things that an investor wants is um to always ah, stay updated or informed about their properties. They always want to find out exactly what is happening with their properties right. Um, and that's where tech comes in that's where tech comes in. Um, if you have um, a good technologyriven property Management Company. You can you can keep investors updated well informed of of their their properties and anything or. Everything that is coined on there.

32:59.74

wongga

So four or five years ago when you started with us and you were you were doing business development calls. Do you find that investors ah are changing as well and I don't want to say demanding this but almost expecting it just because every you know tech is so prevalent in our lives.

33:16.74

Fercy

I Believe so and especially after Covid I think ah after I think Covid changed the industry quite a bit as well and because of Covid Everybody just has a different mentality. Um, everybody expects.

33:34.18

Fercy

You know your rear processes everything that you do to be um, more technology based.

33:39.97

wongga

Um, what about on the tenants side are there different expectations in the last four or five years that you've seen from tenants and technology.

33:49.52

Fercy

I Think they were also influenced by by by Covid. Um I think it's It's exactly the same as with our investors they expect to be always well-informed. Um they expect to have everything at their fingertips. Um, and that's again, that's where technology is very very important.

34:11.87

wongga

Yeah Communications tickets. Um I think people they kind of have an aversion of picking up with the phone these days they want to be able to reach out and that's that instant gratification when you're texting with your your management team right? Okay, um.

34:23.57

Fercy

Exactly.

34:29.32

wongga

So you mentioned you had a ah, really strong customer service background before you joined us, let me ask you what? what? do you? wish you would have known before you started doing real estate.

34:38.16

Fercy

Oh Wow Um, there are so many moving parts in in real estate So many moving parts and in property management services I think um, yeah, my my background is is totally different. So if ah, just to be able to know. A little bit more um about Market rates. Um vacancy rates um property management just to have a little bit more information about that because ah, ah, gaining the the knowledge and the experience that. That I have right Now. It's ah it's taken quite a bit quite quite a while for sure.

35:21.46

wongga

Well, it's challenging industry and we always ah joke about property management that it's tough. It's tough because nobody nobody really calls a property manager to say with positive things right? It's always we're problem Solvers. So therefore we're dealing with problems whenever we pick up the phone. So okay, well um I think we're out of time now. But I ask every guest this question and I'd like to hear what you have to say so this is the investing to win podcast. How do you Define success and what does winning look like for you.

35:58.45

Fercy

Um, success for me is to accomplish the goals that you set out for yourself. I Think that's success. Ah winning especially the area that I work In. Um. Um, my position business development winning for me is and we talked about this podcast has been about educating our investors winning for me is is assigning a new client who um, maybe had no idea about this industry. At all. But we've made them confident enough that they can keep their properties that we're going to take care of it. Um, that they made the the right choice the right decision to me. That's that's ah, that's a huge win.

36:49.93

wongga

Yeah, and and I mean how how good does it feel that you're helping them build wealth right? I mean that's that's the best feeling in the world. Okay, well thank you? Fercy um.

36:53.21

Fercy

Exactly.

37:00.76

wongga

I Have really enjoyed this time with you and I appreciate you being willing to come on the podcast I know when I asked you it was a little bit of a surprise but I think our listeners are going to get a lot out of this episode. So thank you again? all right? Okay, we'll talk to you in the office.

37:11.97

Fercy

I Hope so they thank you gared appreciate. It sounds good.